April 1 to April 15, 1997
Subject: Discussion List
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 09:01:17 -0800
From: "Julie A. Carroll" mrsrogrs@pacbell.net
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
My name is Julie Carroll. I am a big JCO fan, have read almost
everything she has published, and would like to be included in your
list. Is this like a chat room or general info on JCO? Please respond.
Thank you, JC
Subject: new novel
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 16:59:46 -0800
From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
To: jco jco@usfca.edu
For those who haven't seen it, there is a preview of the next JCO novel,
Man Crazy, at this address:
http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/manpro.html
Randy Souther
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 18:07:55 -0700
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: debee loyd msbach@vs1.invsn.com
Subject: Re: Discussion List
Hi: no, this is just "e" mail, disguised as a discussion group. but it is
for JCO fans. there's some stuff on the net about her, including her latest
book "Man Crazy". Can't wait. by being on this list you will be notified of
any appearances, etc. i think. have you ever heard her read? let's
correspond about this, if you like. it's the next best thing to a chat, eh?
ms bach
At 09:01 AM 4/5/97 -0800, you wrote:
>My name is Julie Carroll. I am a big JCO fan, have read almost
>everything she has published, and would like to be included in your
>list. Is this like a chat room or general info on JCO? Please respond.
> Thank you, JC
>
>
Subject: [Fwd: Hello Everyone]
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 00:25:37 -0800
From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
To: jco jco@usfca.edu
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 02:57:09 -0400
From: David Chewning chewning-nmb@worldnet.att.net
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Hello Everyone
First off, I would like to say that I am a new addition to the Joyce
Carol Oates Fan Club :) and I am truly beginning to appreciate her
work. I would like to SUBSCRIBE to the list, but i also would like some
assistance. Though I am sure you here this quite a lot, I am working on
a paper for my freshman english class. This paper deals with the story
"Where are you Going, Where have you Been?" and while I am diligently at
work on it, I was just wondering if any of you would be kind enough to
give me input on the matter. I am working on the question "Is Arnold
Friend the Devil?" I believe him to be the devil, and though I have
found much supportive evidence to help prove my point, I also realize
that 2 heads are better than one, and many heads are better than 2, etc.
I would really appreciate any help that can be given. I simply know
that all of you seem to be experts in analyzing Joyce Carol Oates'
works, and this would seem like the ideal place to get some ideas....
Thank you for your time. :-)
David Chewning
Chewning-nmb@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello Everyone]
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 00:41:10 -0800
From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Though I am sure you here this quite a lot, I am working on
> a paper for my freshman english class. This paper deals with the story
> "Where are you Going, Where have you Been?" and while I am diligently at
> work on it, I was just wondering if any of you would be kind enough to
> give me input on the matter. I am working on the question "Is Arnold
> Friend the Devil?" I believe him to be the devil, and though I have
> found much supportive evidence to help prove my point, I also realize
> that 2 heads are better than one, and many heads are better than 2, etc.
> I would really appreciate any help that can be given. I simply know
> that all of you seem to be experts in analyzing Joyce Carol Oates'
> works, and this would seem like the ideal place to get some ideas....
David,
I don't presume to speak for the group, but I suspect you will be more
likely to get responses if you offer something for people to chew on,
such as: what evidence did you find that Arnold Friend is the Devil? Not
to put you on the spot, of course. ;)
Randy Souther
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello Everyone]
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 07:55:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Frank ffrank@gremlan.org
Reply-To
jco@usfca.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Simply remove the "Rs" from his name which will yield: "An Old Fiend."
Pretty Satanic--eh what?
Fred Frank
ffrank@gremlan.org
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Randy Souther wrote:
> Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 02:57:09 -0400
> From: David Chewning
> To: jco@usfca.edu
> Subject: Hello Everyone
>
>
> First off, I would like to say that I am a new addition to the Joyce
> Carol Oates Fan Club :) and I am truly beginning to appreciate her
> work. I would like to SUBSCRIBE to the list, but i also would like some
> assistance. Though I am sure you here this quite a lot, I am working on
> a paper for my freshman english class. This paper deals with the story
> "Where are you Going, Where have you Been?" and while I am diligently at
> work on it, I was just wondering if any of you would be kind enough to
> give me input on the matter. I am working on the question "Is Arnold
> Friend the Devil?" I believe him to be the devil, and though I have
> found much supportive evidence to help prove my point, I also realize
> that 2 heads are better than one, and many heads are better than 2, etc.
> I would really appreciate any help that can be given. I simply know
> that all of you seem to be experts in analyzing Joyce Carol Oates'
> works, and this would seem like the ideal place to get some ideas....
> Thank you for your time. :-)
>
> David Chewning
> Chewning-nmb@worldnet.att.net
>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hello Everyone]
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:24:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: RJohn713@aol.com
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
David,
I would suggest you check out the several books on JCO's short fiction
available at your college library. Also, the bibliographies of these books
will list numerous articles on the story, some of which specifically address
the issue of Arnold's demonic nature. And be sure to look at JCO's article
on the film version of the story, "Smooth Talk," in her book (WOMAN) WRITER:
OCCASIONS AND OPPORTUNITIES. She describes how she came to write the story
after reading a LIFE magazine article. Good luck.
Greg Johnson
From: smancin1@ix.netcom.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:00:41 -0500 (CDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: READINGS and WORKSHOPS
I was wondering if anyone in the group plans to attend any of the scheduled
readings or workshops featuring JCO. I would be very interested in hearing
about any event from someone who is lucky enough to attend. Check out the
homepage for the info, Randy has done a stellar job cataloguing her schedule.
smb
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 23:08:32 +0000
From: "t.a. hulslander" t-hulslander@top.monad.net
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Readings and Appearences
I will not be one of the lucky ones to go to a JCO reading...I am
"stuck" here in NH; children, work, etc..I hope those of you who do
get a chance to see/hear her will share the experience with the rest
of us!
I loved the "preview" of Man Crazy, it seems that there is another
interesting character coming our way.
Take care all,
Krista
From: Annedyer@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:48:09 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: READINGS and WORKSHOPS
In a message dated 97-04-10 17:02:44 EDT, you write:
> I was wondering if anyone in the group plans to attend any of the scheduled
> readings or workshops featuring JCO. I would be very interested in
hearing
> about any event from someone who is lucky enough to attend. Check out the
> homepage for the info, Randy has done a stellar job cataloguing her
schedule.
>
>
> smb
>
Smb---I'm travelling to Charleston, WV next weekend to see JCO read at the
library-- I'm so excited! I'll be sure to tell ya'll all about her talk when
I get back. Are you going to any readings?
Anne-Dyer
From: smancin1@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:36:27 -0500 (CDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: READINGS and WORKSHOPS
On 04/10/97 18:48:09 you wrote:
>>
>Smb---I'm travelling to Charleston, WV next weekend to see JCO read at the
>library-- I'm so excited! I'll be sure to tell ya'll all about her talk
when
>I get back. Are you going to any readings?
>
>Anne-Dyer
>
>
Unfortunately, I don't have any trips planned to see JCO. I am going to be
starting grad school for creative writing this summer at Miami University in
Oxford. I'm glad you are going and I'll look forward to hearing all about
it from you. Do I detect a southern accent? I lived in Atlanta for awhile
and "ya'll" reminded me of some of my great southern friends.
smb
From: "Fiona Webster" fi@oceanstar.com
To: jco@usfca.edu
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 15:27:10 +0000
Subject: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
Hi folks -- another newcomer here. I'm in the midst of writing a
short piece on Oates related to my job as Horror Editor at Amazon
Books, so I was tickled to find the Celestial Timepiece website
(superb work, Randy!). I just read through the archives of this list
so far, and am most impressed with the level of the discussion.
I must admit I come from a somewhat more plebeian roots myself --
not so much "literary" (whatever that means...) as from the horror
genre. I first discovered JCO through her short story "The Bingo
Master," which was published in the Kirby McAuley's influential
horror anthology, _Dark Forces_, in 1980. As y'all know, I'm sure,
JCO has been frequently lauded by the horror genre community,
having won two Bram Stoker awards so far, one for Lifetime
Achievement and one for _Zombie_ as Best Novel of 1996.
I have a strong interest in the genre-vs.-literary division as it
pertains to the always vague dividing line between "horror fiction"
and "dark literature." (If you're interested in my essay on the
topic, check out "Dark Currents in the Main Stream" at my website
http://www.oceanstar.com -- I also have a specific sectionf my
website devoted to horror fiction -- http://www.oceanstar.com/horror)
So I haven't read a lot of JCO, and what I've read has tended to
cluster around the more explicitly horror-related works:
_Night-Side_, _Haunted_, _Zombie_, _First Love_, her laudatory review
of S. T. Joshi's new Lovecraft biography in the _New York Review of
Books_, and most recently, her terrific anthology, _American Gothic
Tales_.
If guess if I were to pose a question to this list, it would go
something like this, "How would you describe JCO's version of the
'New Gothic'?"
A few thoughts from me on this subject:
-- first of all, a quotation from Donald Burleson, prominent horror
critic and writer: "The darkness of the mind--with the possible
exception of Shirley Jackson, no one since Poe has examined it with
such candor as Joyce Carol Oates."
-- in Bradford Morrow and Patrick McGrath's anthology _The New
Gothic_, they characterize this literary style as leaving behind the
props of the Old Gothic -- ruined abbeys, dripping cellars, clanking
chains, etc. -- in favor of what they call a "gothic sensibility"
focusing on such themes as madness, monstrosity, death, disease,
horror, weird sexuality (it's quite vague, I know)
-- David Punter, in his _Literature of Terror 2: The Modern Gothic_,
is also all-encompassing and vague, but he too puts an emphasis on
the interior labyrinth, the journey of the narrator into deeper and
deeper layers of repressed awareness of trauma and/or disease, and
the desire for a "cure" which is ever-thwarted.
-- Myself, I'm not sure the word "gothic" has a whole lot of meaning
anymore, so much has the "new gothic" come to seem synonomous with
psychological horror, horror in which exterior events and monsters
are representative of an interior search for something like
wholeness, comfort w/in the self, identity.
-- And yet something that surprises me, over and over again, in
reading book reviews of such neo-gothic writers as JCO and Patrick
McGrath is the assertion that ever since Freud, the interior of the
human psyche has been so opened up and well-understood (!) that there
is no need for a gothic fiction. For example, in a review of JCO's
_First Love_ in the _NYTimes_, a critic said, "... the whole idea of
recycling spooky archetypes from the collective unconscious seems an
artificial enterprise for such a knowing writer. When psychoanalysis
came in the door, shouldn't the Gothic have gone out the pointy
window?"
-- When I think about JCO's version of "gothic," I think of a
distressed woman wandering forlornly through a crumbling ruin of a
castle, like in the old 18th and early 19th century gothics, menaced
by something, discovering something, in search for something, with
images of darkness and water all about (water in those cellars!) --
except that in Oates, the castle is not a concrete thing, but the
crumbling social structures of our society, and the woman is in fact
a part of a larger self, a conscious being running afraid amidts the
huge structure of unconscious/subconscious monsters that comprise her
own psyche.
So... nothing conclusive there... but enough from me... what are
y'all's thoughts in this regard?
--Fiona Webster
http://www.oceanstar.com
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:13:38 -0400
To:jco@usfca.edu, jco@usfca.edu
From: Keith Brecher Keith_Brecher@brown.edu
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
At 03:27 PM 4/12/97 +0000, Fiona Webster wrote:
Fiona--
I enjoyed reading all your thoughts, but the most interesting was your
mention of Kirby McAuley's anthology DARK FORCES which is the exact same
way I was introduced to JCO. I went on to read more stuff by Theodore
Sturgeon, Dennis Etchison, Richard and Christian Matheson, and, in
particular, Karl Edward Wagner (not the Kane books though), but I didn't
really try anything else by JCO until much later. Consequently, I always
considered her a genre writer until I read, and was appropriately
overwhelmed by, WHAT I LIVED FOR. I probably won't ever be able to
dis-associate JCO from the DARK FORCES writers, so when reading something
like her recent WE WERE THE MULVANEYS I seem to fixate on the horror-type
aspects in the story, i.e., the swamp scene. A-and don't let me forget that
Plastica concert. That was pretty horrible too.... I'll have to think more
about your "new gothic" question, but the "literary" writer that comes
immediately to mind vis-a-vis JCO is William T. Vollmann. Like JCO, WTV has
an idiosyncratic style and a voluminous and seemingly endless output of
fiction, reviews, and essays. He's published "new gothic" fiction--I think
something from 13 STORIES AND 13 EPITAPHS appeared in the McGrath/Morrow
collection--but comparisons to JCO may end with that. Speaking of Bradford
Morrow, have you or anybody else on the list read his extraordinary new
novel GIOVANNI'S GIFT? It's well worth reading if you haven't, even if only
to rebel against the mean-spirited and vengeful Walter Kirn review in the
NYTBR.
Best wishes,
Keith
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 21:00:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: RJohn713@aol.com
To: jco@usfca.edu
Although JCO is interested in the Gothic in a literary/historical sense
(especially in BELLEFLEUR and the other "postmodernist Gothics,") she seems
primarily to have discovered that this mode of writing corresponds to her
vision of nature and society as brutal, horrific, and both physically and
psychologically violent. As long ago as 1969 she remarked, "Gothicism,
whatever it is, is not a literary tradition so much as a fairly realistic
assessment of modern life." This statement, I think, speaks volumes about
her attitude toward Gothic conventions and about her artistic vision as a
whole.
The "newness" of her Gothicism relates primarily, I think, to the
metafictional strain in her work--her rewritings of TURN OF THE SCREW, for
example.
Greg Johnson
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 00:17:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew A. Cheney" mac5519@is.NYU.EDU
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
An interesting comparison in the discussion of gothicism and genre would
be the late John Gardner, a friend of Oates's (she wrote a memorial poem
to him in TIME TRAVELLER). He praised her frequently, and praise from
Gardner was something truly meaningful -- he condemned almost all
contempory fiction to the garbageheap in ON MORAL FICTION, and though he
later tempered his views, he was always a tough critic. Anwyay, he once
said that the difference between his own writing and Oates's was that
Oates does not believe in human nature, or at least a single human nature.
In his review of BELLEFLEUR, Gardner said that Oates is best when she is a
realist, but that for her realism encompasses such things as out-of-body
experiences, and that the most frightening scenes of even a work like
BELLEFLEUR do not involve the gothicisms Gardner claims she uses for
symbolic purposes, but "real-world atrocities".
In his own works, Gardner used what might be vaguely termed gothic devices
for metafictional, and sometimes metaphysical, reasons -- even more so
than Oates. This is, I think, one of the prime differences between a
writer like Oates and one of the more conventional horror genre writers.
I read lots of the genre writers when I was younger, including Lovecraft,
and the prime difference I noticed when I started to read more "serious"
fiction was that the purposes are different. Serious fiction, no matter
what masks it wears, examines human beings and their place in the world.
Genre fiction -- and I would certainly include Lovecraft and the whole
stable of WEIRD TALES writers past and present -- seeks to entertain, to
scare and shock and titillate. There's nothing wrong with that, and many
of those writers have a much better sense of what fiction is and should be
than lots of dreary novelists who take themselves far too seriously. But
a writer like Oates or Gardner sees the gothicisms for what they are:
tools of insight, not just entertainment. That why when she does it well
(which is certainly not always; I agree with many of the people who have
criticized her sometimes "breathless" prose) Oates is better than almost
any genre writer: her work inhabits the realm of entertainment, for if it
weren't entertaining it wouldn't be worth much at all, but the
claws reach out a little bit beyond the darkness and seize hold of
something that is resonant.
Of course, it would be the height of snobbery to say that genre writers
aren't capable of doing the same thing occasionally: witness writers like
Harlan Ellison and Theodore Sturgeon, anything in Oates's own AMERICAN
GOTHIC TALES or David Hartwell's excellent THE DARK DESCENT (hope I have
that title right, the book isn't in front of me). It's just that, by
definition, genre writers aren't going for the same thing as a "serious"
writer like Oates.
Perhaps a more important question is: should we even bother with labels
like "gothic" or "horror", or should we just discuss what we think are
good books and bad? I've thought about it a lot, but have yet to come up
with a satisfactory answer. (Sorry all these thoughts are so scattershot
-- it's been a long day!)
Matt Cheney
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 13:23:08 +0000
From: "Fiona Webster" fi@oceanstar.com
To: jco@usfca.edu
Keith writes:
> I'll have to think more
> about your "new gothic" question, but the "literary" writer that comes
> immediately to mind vis-a-vis JCO is William T. Vollmann. Like JCO, WTV has
> an idiosyncratic style and a voluminous and seemingly endless output of
> fiction, reviews, and essays.
I have read a little bit of Vollmann, and have a copy of his _The
Rainbow Stories_, but haven't spent enough time with his stories to
be sure whether I like them or not. He's a little oblique for me, or
maybe too post-modern? Not sure...
> ...have you or anybody else on the list read his extraordinary new
> novel GIOVANNI'S GIFT? It's well worth reading if you haven't, even if only
> to rebel against the mean-spirited and vengeful Walter Kirn review in the
> NYTBR.
I've read some of the reviews, and am definitely intrigued, but I
couldn't decide whether it was more "mystery" or whether it has
enough of a "horror" element to interest me. (I do find the labels
useself, if only for figuring which books I will enjoy more -- I find
"mystery," on the whole, too cerebral, not emotionally powerful.)
--thanks for your thoughts,
Fiona
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:01:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Frank ffrank@gremlan.org
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
To: jco@usfca.edu
Can anyone on the list supply me with the full title, the publisher and
date, and a list of the stories included in JCO's anthology, American
Gothic Tales? I would really appreciate receiving this information for a
chapter on the Gothic which I am writing for a revised edition of Neil
Barron's Horror Literature (Garland, 1990). I'm also curious to know
JCO's choices for the anthology. Thanks to JCO list members.
Fred Frank
ffrank@gremlan.org
On Sun, 13 Apr 1997, Fiona Webster wrote:
> Keith writes:
> > I'll have to think more
> > about your "new gothic" question, but the "literary" writer that comes
> > immediately to mind vis-a-vis JCO is William T. Vollmann. Like JCO, WTV has
> > an idiosyncratic style and a voluminous and seemingly endless output of
> > fiction, reviews, and essays.
>
> I have read a little bit of Vollmann, and have a copy of his _The
> Rainbow Stories_, but haven't spent enough time with his stories to
> be sure whether I like them or not. He's a little oblique for me, or
> maybe too post-modern? Not sure...
>
> > ...have you or anybody else on the list read his extraordinary new
> > novel GIOVANNI'S GIFT? It's well worth reading if you haven't, even if only
> > to rebel against the mean-spirited and vengeful Walter Kirn review in the
> > NYTBR.
>
> I've read some of the reviews, and am definitely intrigued, but I
> couldn't decide whether it was more "mystery" or whether it has
> enough of a "horror" element to interest me. (I do find the labels
> useself, if only for figuring which books I will enjoy more -- I find
> "mystery," on the whole, too cerebral, not emotionally powerful.)
>
> --thanks for your thoughts,
>
> Fiona
>
> enough.)
>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 22:16:46 EDT
From: Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
To: joyce carol oates mailing list jco@usfca.edu
Oates's version of the gothic: I'd have to say adaptation by someone who knows
the field well, and updates it to contemporary issues. For example, "The
Premonition" strikes me as a gothic revenge tale, but with the gore implied
because domestic violence is (regretfully) often only implied over proven. The
story would work great as an episode of Tales From the Crypt if we saw what was
actually in the presents. Oates knows the tradition, but uses it to prove a
modern day point.
Hope this makes some sense; it'll hopefully be part of my master's thesis next
year. Mark Sutton
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 23:22:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: RJohn713@aol.com
To: jco@usfca.edu
The mention of John Gardner reminded me of something I found
amusing/enlightening...so here's a little "sneak preview" from my biography
of JCO. When JCO was in London for the academic year 1971/72, she met up
with Gardner, who angered her by suggesting (he'd had a few drinks) that she
write a story "in which things work out well, for a change." She responded
that "happy endings don't work in my writing."
Greg Johnson
Subject: Re: JCO & horror & the "new gothic*
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 20:59:28 -0800
From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
To: jco@usfca.edu
>Can anyone on the list supply me with the full title, the publisher and
>date, and a list of the stories included in JCO's anthology, American
>Gothic Tales?
This info is listed at this address:
http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/gothic.html
Randy Souther
Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 4-13-97
Send comments and suggestions to Randy Souther
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