Subject:   Re: violence in oates
      Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:38:00 +0930
     From:  gjscales@camtech.net.au (Greg Scales)
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu


>Regarding "The Knife," you might be interested in a little background.
> Joyce's Princeton-area friend, Alicia Ostriker (a renowned poet who teaches
>at Rutgers), was raped and wrote an article about the experience for THE
>VILLAGE VOICE.  Joyce read the article and based "The Knife" on Ostriker's
>experience (Ostriker said she "wasn't offended at all" and is an admirer of
>JCO's work).  In so much of JCO's fiction about violent events (e.g., "Where
>Are You Going, Where Have You Been?", BLACK WATER, ZOMBIE, et al), the germ
>of the story is a newspaper or magazine article.
>
>Greg J.

Isn't it amazing what an artistic imagination can do with a humble
newspaper article. Does anyone know if there were there any
complaints/litigation from the Kennedy or Dahmer families over Blackwater
and Zombie?




Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Sat, 17 May 1997 00:32:48 -0400 (EDT)
     From:  Annedyer@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu


In a message dated 97-05-15 10:45:18 EDT, you write:

> 
>  Regarding "The Knife," you might be interested in a little background.
>   Joyce's Princeton-area friend, Alicia Ostriker (a renowned poet who
teaches
>  at Rutgers), was raped and wrote an article about the experience for THE
>  VILLAGE VOICE.  Joyce read the article and based "The Knife" on Ostriker's
>  experience (Ostriker said she "wasn't offended at all" and is an admirer
of
>  JCO's work).  In so much of JCO's fiction about violent events (e.g.,
"Where
>  Are You Going, Where Have You Been?", BLACK WATER, ZOMBIE, et al), the
germ
>  of the story is a newspaper or magazine article.
>  
>  Greg J.
>  

Greg--your 'behind-the-scenes'  information about JCO is truly great--I love
to find out events that propel writers to write.  Thanks for sharing.

AD



Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:02:29 -0700
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: Nikki Senecal senecal@scf.usc.edu
Subject: Re: violence in oates
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu

But I can't help
>feeling that a story like "The Knife" is simply gratuitous, even sadistic,
>an example of all of Oates's worst tendencies.  Why do I notice this?
>Because she a female writer?  No, I would think it was a bad story no
>matter who wrote it!  (It's even more irksome because I want my favorite
>writers to always write sublimely, every single word!  But then, even
>perfection gets boring, and I'm grateful to her for taking risks.)

I don't know what criteria you are using to judge this story.  I think it
is integral not only in comparison to "Naked" (as someone else mentioned)
but also to "The Boyfriend." "THe Knife" taken with these other stories
also follows the trajectory I see working in the three sections which move
in different directions: from realistic to fantastic + from third to first
person.  All three stories give women a voice in their role as victims and
examine the woman's subject position.  (Consider the role played in each
story of telling vs. not telling one's story).  What do you find "irksome"
and "bad"?

This discussion reminds me of a strange Oatesian reality that occured when
I read the paper I outline above at a conference.  There was a real Knife
(not mine).  You can email me privately to get the scoop.

Nikki



Date:         Mon, 19 May 97 15:02:36 EDT
From: Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
Subject:      _Demon and other Tales_
To: Joyce Carol Oates Mailing LIst 


Does anyone know anything about Oates's recent collection _Demon and other
Tales_, published by Necronomicon Press.  My local bookstore doesn't have it on
their records and the publisher seems to have an unlisted number.  I would
really like to use it in my master's thesis next year, provided the cost isn't
absolutely horrorific.  Thanks in advance for any information.



Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:49:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Ressmyer ressmyrr@wvlc.wvnet.edu
Subject: Re: _Demon and other Tales_
To: jco@usfca.edu

Mark,
Necronomicon Press | P. O. Box 1304 | West Warwick, RI 02893 USA 
Phone: 401-828-7161 | Fax: 401-826-1151 
e-mail: necropress@ids.net

Above should help your search.

Richard
Charleston, WV

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Mark Sutton wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about Oates's recent collection _Demon and other
> Tales_, published by Necronomicon Press.  My local bookstore doesn't have it on
> their records and the publisher seems to have an unlisted number.  I would
> really like to use it in my master's thesis next year, provided the cost isn't
> absolutely horrorific.  Thanks in advance for any information.
> 



Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:56:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Ressmyer 
Subject: Re: _Demon and other Tales_
To: jco@usfca.edu

Also for Mark--

Necronomicon's www homepage is at:

                http://www.necropress.com/

The work you are looking for was published in January 1996.  I have not 
see it, but you have scratched [see "Devil and Daniel Webster" for pun] 
my curiosity!]

Richard
Charleston, WV          

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Mark Sutton wrote:

> Does anyone know anything about Oates's recent collection _Demon and other
> Tales_, published by Necronomicon Press.  My local bookstore doesn't have it on
> their records and the publisher seems to have an unlisted number.  I would
> really like to use it in my master's thesis next year, provided the cost isn't
> absolutely horrorific.  Thanks in advance for any information.
> 



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
      Date:   Wed, 21 May 1997 17:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
     From:  "Matthew A. Cheney" mac5519@is.NYU.EDU
Reply-To:   jco@usfca.edu


On Sun, 18 May 1997, Nikki Senecal wrote:

> I don't know what criteria you are using to judge this story.  I think it
> is integral not only in comparison to "Naked" (as someone else mentioned)
> but also to "The Boyfriend." "THe Knife" taken with these other stories
> also follows the trajectory I see working in the three sections which move
> in different directions: from realistic to fantastic + from third to first
> person.  All three stories give women a voice in their role as victims and
> examine the woman's subject position.  (Consider the role played in each
> story of telling vs. not telling one's story).  What do you find "irksome"
> and "bad"?

I very much like the points you made.  My original judgment of
"The Knife" as "bad" was superficial, since I've only read the story once
and snatched it as an example for my argument because I just had a
(somewhat vague) memory of finding it gratuitous and self-indulgent.  What
criteria?  Gut reaction.  As much as I would like to have some sort of
absolutes of litcrit, ultimately all I can say is either something worked
for me or didn't, and then try to explain why.  The criteria I like to
think that I use are those I outlined in the original message: is the
story told in such a way that all of the elements merge in a unified
creation, and is the author's apparent reason for writing the story one
with which I can sympathize.  These are very personal criteria, perhaps
only just ways of saying "I liked it," or "I didn't like it", but I aspire
more to be a semi-intelligent reader, not a critic.

Unfortunately, my copy of HEAT is in New Hampshire right now, along
with most of my other books, and I'm in New York, so I can't carefully
reread the story and see if I'm actually in total agreement with you or
not.  At the risk of seriously disagreeing with my future self, let me try
to stumble around a few points relevant to the discussion.  Maybe we're
just beating a dead horse here, or have reached a stalemate of tastes, but
I am of two minds about the violence in Oates, and really appreciate what
people have written so far, and will, I hope, continue to write.
Therefore, I throw these rather reckless comments out:

The fact that we live in a reprehensibly violent nation in a reprehensibly
violent world does not mean that all violence is justified in a work of
fiction.  Why do we tell stories, after all?  To reiterate what horrible
things people are capable of doing to each other?  To shock and show what
horribly imagery we can come up with?  I hope not.  I want writers to
write with great, lofty goals in mind; to strive for the stars even when
they know it's impossible to reach much higher than their heads.  I want
writers to express the common bonds of humans, to show us how alike me
are, how weird and silly and dangerous we are.  And of course, I think
writers should be entertaining, to string yarns and play games and fiddle
with all of our most cherished assumptions.  Great, you say, but where
does violence fit in?  Surely it's a commonality of humans, surely it
shows us how sadly alike we are in our evils, and surely a story of
violence in an everyday setting challenges our assumptions of safety.

Yes, and that is why violence is common to most great literature.  The
question then becomes one of method.  My concern is no longer so much why
is a work violent, but how.  This is where personal taste really takes
over.  My objection to "The Knife" was an objection of method, a hazy
feeling that the writer was cheating at the game.  The impression I got on
a first reading was that Oates didn't care about the protagonist she
created (Greg's biographical info makes me doubt this very much, though),
and that she had set up the story to show us a person in a
horrible situation, but for no good reason.  The feeling I came away with
from the story was: so what? why bother?  We live in a violent world and
often react in less than heroic ways to the violence: is this news?  (But
then, great fiction is certainly not about bringing us news.)

I found the story irksome because it felt tossed-off, a terrible situation
trivialized by an author's interest not in the character's predicament and
emotions, but merely in the portrayal of violence.  It felt like a scene
from a Quentin Tarrantino movie.  I found the story irksome because I
think Oates is capable of better, is capable of writing better than
anybody currently alive.  Ultimately, though, it's a matter of taste:
Oates writes in so many styles, in so many genres, in so many ways that
she's almost written something for everybody: something for everybody to
love, and something for everybody to think is drivel.  The specifics will
always be in flux.  Just look at the variety of responses to a work like
BLACK WATER (the novel, not the opera): some critics rate it among her top
works, others find it embarrassing.  I admit that I like her slower, more
contemplative and psychological works, and am biased against stories -- by
anyone, not just Oates -- which are focused on acts of physical violence.
Sure, Faulkner and Dostoyevsky and Shakespeare can overcome this bias --
and Oates, too, in works like FOXFIRE and even ZOMBIE -- but that's me.
We all have different preferences, different ways of responding to
stories, and let's celebrate it.  The wonder of a writer like Oates is
that she can satisfy, at one time or another, almost any preference and
overcome almost any bias.

Please pardon my verbosity here.  I hope I haven't just obscured the
discussion more than furthered it.  I'll shut up now.

Matthew Cheney



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:Wed, 21 May 97 17:37:36 EDT
     From: Mark Sutton MSUTTON@VM.SC.EDU
         To:  Joyce Carol Oates Mailing List jco@usfca.edu

This actually goes, in part, to an earlier comment, which my account decided
to demolish.  G.F. Waller has written that "reading a collection of her stories
straight through sometimes feels like an encounter with a recurring nightmare."
(_Dreaming and America:  Obsession and Transcendence in the Fiction of Joyce
Carol Oates_, p. 4).  Having done this, I agree wholeheartedly. :)

One other thought:  could the violence be caused by the character's worlds
seeming too disordered.  Many of Oates's settings are very detailed, but they
don't have any exterior reference point, like up or North.  For example, look
at the first paragraph of "Year of Wonders."  It lists every entrance and most
of the stores in the mall, but only in relation to each other.  The placement
makes little sense.  She also seems to do something similar in "Shopping,"
from _Heat_.  In a world like that, where everything is presented and nothing
makes sense, some people would want to lash out, if for no other reason than
to establish their own order (ex.  I break a single pane in a wall of windows,
like in an office building.  The smooth surface is disrupted by my act).
Another reaction could be shame at being trapped in this choas.

My .005 cents, which hopefully makes some sense.  Mark Sutton



From: LoriLamb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:53:23 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: violence in oates

I am so glad that we have this forum to discuss JCO's work.  I hope that we
all won't get too bogged down in feeling as if we must censor ourselves in
order not to offend.  Please say that we won't write in any attempt to search
for the "right" answers.  I know in my classes I hate it when I feel that the
teacher is merely looking for a specific set of preconceived, "right"
answers.  Althought I personally didn't agree with Matthew's comments about
Knife, I still am open to hearing what he had to say.  This is the whole
point of an open forum, yes?  Frankly, I am overjoyed that I have some folks
who are as into JCO as I am to discuss her work with.  I know I would drive
my husband insane otherwise.

Lori



Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:50:31 +0000
From: Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: violence in oates

LoriLamb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I am so glad that we have this forum to discuss JCO's work.  I hope that we
> all won't get too bogged down in feeling as if we must censor ourselves in
> order not to offend.  Please say that we won't write in any attempt to search
> for the "right" answers.  I know in my classes I hate it when I feel that the
> teacher is merely looking for a specific set of preconceived, "right"
> answers.  Althought I personally didn't agree with Matthew's comments about
> Knife, I still am open to hearing what he had to say.  This is the whole
> point of an open forum, yes?  Frankly, I am overjoyed that I have some folks
> who are as into JCO as I am to discuss her work with.  I know I would drive
> my husband insane otherwise.
> 
> Lori

As a writer myself, and a published author of non-fiction, I feel 
compelled to inject an opinion here.  Lori points to a significant 
flaw in the way modern literature is taught... the teacher or 
professor may be "coasting" sometimes, relying on what he or she was 
taught as the "correct" way to interpret a given work.

Also, academics burn out when they refuse to take a fresh look at work 
they first read years before... with experience and maturity, one 
develops one's own way of expressing perceptions about writing.  JCO 
offers almost an overabundance of work for students to read and study.
Hurray for all who venture into the land of Oates with the intention 
of writing about her writing...

That said, I must assert my deeply held belief that the writer (or 
artist) is not obligated to write "non-violent" or "positive" 
stories... if this were the case, I would have shot myself many years 
ago.  No writer is ever obligated to explain the motive for writing a 
story or a novel to ANYONE!  No more than Picasso was obligated to 
explain whether he loved or hated a particular female who was the 
subject of a portrait.

I encourage all who would become writers, or who would emulate JCO, to 
follow the creative impulse, no matter where it leads.  And to all who 
are students of JCO's work, I say, nowhere is it written that JCO has 
any one "right" interpretation.  Why spoil one's enjoyment or kill the 
thrill of fear that she creates with a rigid set of criteria?

We all bring our own secret past to the reading of this great writer's 
works; that's what makes horse racing...

Francie Schwartz

PS ANYBODY GOING TO PHILADELPHIA FOR THE BLACK WATER PREVIEWS?
please tell us!



Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 06:40:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: "V. Suzanne Drake" tanager@crl.com
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: violence in oates

I am reading ....the Mulvaneys" and pondering the "violence" in 
Oates.  The account of Marianne reflects to a great extent my own life 
experience.   I think "violence" is a common occurrence
in many families and that Oates is a genius at showing the feelings of 
all the characters involved in the "violent" situations.  
Oates' violence is not contrived.

I felt the same way about "Solstice" which again depicted so well
the feelings of the manipulated and the manipulator but didn't I
apply the term "violence".

Violence in my thinking has the connotation of cruelty and/or brutality.

Is there another word for the "violence" depicted in Oates' writing?



Subject:   Childwold
      Date:   Fri, 23 May 1997 03:02:39 -0400 (EDT)
     From:   Annedyer@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu


I just finished reading Oates'  "Childwold."  Anybody read it? I must say, I
ordered it off the internet, it's a very hard book to find, and while reading
it, I discovered that it was missing 15 pages! God! But those pages were
close to the beginning.... Anyway, Childwold was so discombobulated that I
found the form distracting.  The paragraphs were short and in different
voices without introduction of characters and they read like vignettes and
oftentimes you wouldn't know what to put with whom until 30 pages later
(assuming you remembered). It was too enigmatic for me---choppy and redundant
without coming to a satisfactory conclusion.  I love JCO but I had a huge
problem with this one.  Any opinions?

anne dyer



From: LoriLamb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:05:29 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: Childwold

I read somewhere that Childwold is a parody of Vladimir Nakokov's Lolita.  I
haven't read Childwold, but in relation to what you call  the
"discombobulated" form of the novel, I think it would make sense for the
narrative to take that kind of form.  Lolita could also be described as
"discombobulated," and a parody of Lolita would naturally be exaggerated. JCO
is most often thought of as being a realist/romantic/gothic author.  Do you
think that Childwold is troubling because it moves away from these forms that
we expect from her to the "postmodern"?  I don't know.  The book is
definitely on my reading list.

LL



Subject:   Re: Childwold
      Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
     From: "V. Suzanne Drake" tanager@crl.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu


I do believe that Childwold was the first book of Oates' that I read and 
didn't like it so abandoned reading anything else by Oates until recently.
I am now enjoying We Were the Mulvaneys and liked Solstice.  Suzanne



Subject:  Mann's Mario & the Magician
      Date:  Sat, 24 May 1997 13:43:28 -0400 (EDT)
     From:  PJSHERIDAN@aol.com
Reply-To:   jco@usfca.edu


I've a feeling you'd have some insight that'll help me understand this short
story.
What do you believe is the point of it?  What's Mann trying to tell me?
I'm 62 yrs old and am rereading some of the stuff I read in college.  I'm
enthralled by Mario but can't (yet) articulate it.

Also, if you know of a good book or two re: Mann's work, I'd be grateful to
know about them.


Thank you

Phil Sheridan
Mill Valley  CA
pjsheridan@aol.com



Subject:  Information requested
      Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:27:25 +0200
     From:  Fernando González fgonzalez@vnet.es
Reply-To: jco@usfca.edu

Greetings to everyone in the list on my first day.

I wonder if anyone would be so kind to tell me whether Joyce Carol Oates'
"WHERE ARE YOU GOING, WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?"  has been translated into
Spanish. If so, could you please provide me with information about the
Editor, Translator, etc.? I would be very grateful if you could. Thanks in
advance.

Fernando González
Málaga (Spain)

Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 5-17-97
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